This conversation hit deep.
I invited Annie Gichuru onto Entrepreneur School because her AI Bias Guide stopped me in my tracks. Annie is a leading Racial Equity Coach & Consultant, and she’s one of the contributors inside my Ease & Alignment with AI Bundle.
We went way beyond “AI tips.” Annie opened my eyes to the invisible gaps in our businesses when we believe kindness equals inclusion—and why AI is never neutral. From filters that don’t recognize darker skin to community platforms that flag “foreign” names as spam, bias shows up in ways you may not even see.
This episode is an invitation to pause, to reflect, and to build more intentionally inclusive brands—because as Annie says, the goal isn’t perfection, it’s reducing harm.
We unpack:
- Why “AI isn’t neutral”—and how data, algorithms and human inputs all carry bias
- The difference between not intentionally excluding and intentionally including
- Real examples of tech bias that impact people every day
- How to prompt AI through your values, not just your voice
- A simple self-audit that reveals who you’re serving—and who you might be leaving out
- Why reducing harm (not aiming for perfect) is the most powerful commitment you can make
Guest Links & Bio
Meet Annie Gichuru
Annie Gichuru is a leading Racial Equity Coach & Consultant for online entrepreneurs. She has helped many prominent online business leaders build intentionally inclusive businesses – the most notable of which is her partnership with The Beautiful You Coaching Academy, where she supports trainees and emerging coaches as a DEI Trainer.
She is deeply passionate about representation through a racial justice lens and combines her experience as an internationally certified life coach, her love of storytelling, and her extensive career as a Human Resource specialist to deliver REPRESENTED—a transformational online program described as “a must for all business owners who are ready to build a racially diverse, inclusive and equitable business.”
Annie’s grace, gentle spirit, and passion for a racially equitable world is setting her apart in the coaching and personal development industry as a compassionate educator with an incredible space-holding ability.
- Website: https://anniegichuru.com/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/annie.gichuru
- Annie’s podcast Represented: https://anniegichuru.com/podcast
- Check out Annie’s AI Bias Aware Experience.
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Grab the Ease & Alignment with AI bundle (FREE until Oct. 12)
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Transcript
AI is not neutral. It is a tool that is
Annie Gichuru:there to help, but there are biases that are baked into it
Annie Gichuru:because it is gathering data, data that has been fed to it.
Kelly Sinclair:This is the entrepreneur school podcast
Kelly Sinclair:where we believe you can run a thriving business and still make
Kelly Sinclair:your family a priority. This show is all about supporting you
Kelly Sinclair:the emerging or early stage Entrepreneur on your journey
Kelly Sinclair:from solopreneur to CEO, while wearing all of the other hats in
Kelly Sinclair:your life. My name is Kelly Sinclair, and I'm a brand and
Kelly Sinclair:marketing strategist who started a business with two kids under
Kelly Sinclair:three. I'm a corporate PR girl turned entrepreneur after I
Kelly Sinclair:learned the hard way that life is too short to waste doing
Kelly Sinclair:things that burn you out on this show, you'll hear inspiring
Kelly Sinclair:stories from other business owners on their journey and
Kelly Sinclair:learn strategies to help you grow a profitable business while
Kelly Sinclair:making it all fit into the life that you want. Welcome to
Kelly Sinclair:entrepreneur School.
Kelly Sinclair:Welcome back to entrepreneur school. I'm very excited to
Kelly Sinclair:share with you my guest today, Annie gishiru. She is a leading
Kelly Sinclair:racial equity coach and consultant for online
Kelly Sinclair:entrepreneurs, she is deeply passionate about representation
Kelly Sinclair:through a racial justice lens, and combines her experience as
Kelly Sinclair:an internationally certified life coach, her love of
Kelly Sinclair:storytelling and her extensive career as a human resource
Kelly Sinclair:specialist to deliver represented a program That is
Kelly Sinclair:transformational and online, and which has been described as a
Kelly Sinclair:must for business owners who are ready to build a racially
Kelly Sinclair:diverse, inclusive and equitable business. Annie's grace, gentle
Kelly Sinclair:spirit and passion for racially equitable world is setting her
Kelly Sinclair:apart in the coaching and personal development industry
Kelly Sinclair:and as a compassionate educator with an incredible space holding
Kelly Sinclair:ability. And she's joining me today because Annie is one of my
Kelly Sinclair:wonderful contributors in the ease and alignment with AI
Kelly Sinclair:bundle that we have going on, and she's going to talk about a
Kelly Sinclair:very important and often overlooked topic, AI bias in the
Kelly Sinclair:online business space. So we are featuring her guide, her AI bias
Kelly Sinclair:guide, as part of the bundle. You can get it as part of
Kelly Sinclair:listening to this episode. And when I first saw this, I was
Kelly Sinclair:like, we need to have a deeper conversation. This is so much
Kelly Sinclair:more than a PDF, so thank you for joining me, Annie, all the
Kelly Sinclair:way from Australia to have this conversation today.
Annie Gichuru:Thank you so much, Kelly. I'm so excited to
Annie Gichuru:be here and with the collaboration, it's just
Annie Gichuru:wonderful. I can't wait for us to dive in.
Kelly Sinclair:Yes, I mean, I think there's a very broad
Kelly Sinclair:conversation, obviously, one that must be ongoing to be had
Kelly Sinclair:about what racial equity looks like, what diversity inclusion
Kelly Sinclair:actually is. And I want to just give a nod right away to your
Kelly Sinclair:podcast represented for anybody who is ready to step into
Kelly Sinclair:learning and listening to that conversation more, we'll try and
Kelly Sinclair:focus today a little bit more on the AI side, because I think
Kelly Sinclair:this is just an interesting aspect of this important
Kelly Sinclair:movement that's happening. But why don't we start with the
Kelly Sinclair:basics, like setting the stage, and begin with what brought you
Kelly Sinclair:into this work? Was there a specific moment that ignited
Kelly Sinclair:your passion, something that happened? What's the story?
Annie Gichuru:I kind of fell into this work. It's not work
Annie Gichuru:that I ever for so myself doing I'm originally from Kenya, but
Annie Gichuru:I've called Australia home for over 25 years. I came here
Annie Gichuru:initially as an international student Kelly, and the idea was
Annie Gichuru:just to do my undergrad graduate and head on back home. But I
Annie Gichuru:fell in love with this country. I fell in love with Australia.
Annie Gichuru:Loved it so much and ended up staying, getting role after role
Annie Gichuru:after role and staying. But it wasn't until I became a mother,
Annie Gichuru:over a decade ago, that I started feeling I wanted more
Annie Gichuru:out of life. It was always about climbing a corporate ladder. My
Annie Gichuru:professional background is in human resources, and I just felt
Annie Gichuru:like I wanted more out of life. I think having a child will do
Annie Gichuru:that to you, when you feel like you want to prioritize other
Annie Gichuru:things, other than just working and making a living, and you
Annie Gichuru:know your daily grind or your eight to five, I felt like I
Annie Gichuru:wanted more, and it was during that time that I got into
Annie Gichuru:coaching. I did my certification as a coach, and I started
Annie Gichuru:looking at ways in which I could support others, particularly
Annie Gichuru:migrants, who were struggling with feeling unworthy, feeling
Annie Gichuru:less than and especially. You know, looking at the dynamics
Annie Gichuru:and being, you know, mostly minorities in terms of race. And
Annie Gichuru:so stepped into that role supporting migrant women of
Annie Gichuru:color to unshackle self limiting beliefs. But the big, big issue,
Annie Gichuru:and the big, big thing and the gap, was matters to do with
Annie Gichuru:race, something that my peers in the coaching industry were not
Annie Gichuru:understanding or seeing, but those were conversations I was
Annie Gichuru:having a lot with my clients and just so this gap, so this big,
Annie Gichuru:nd it wasn't until, you know,:Annie Gichuru:of George Floyd, that people started paying attention. People
Annie Gichuru:started asking, you know, how could we have missed this, or
Annie Gichuru:how can we do better? And that's when I really stepped into this
Annie Gichuru:space of, you know, racial equity and beginning to support
Annie Gichuru:coaches, course creators, online business owners, really on how
Annie Gichuru:to build businesses that are more equitable, how to hold
Annie Gichuru:safer space for us as a people of color, and so I kind of fell
Annie Gichuru:into it. It wasn't something that I intended to get into, but
Annie Gichuru:it's certainly something that I absolutely love. Feel very
Annie Gichuru:fulfilled, and it's work that I I enjoy.
Kelly Sinclair:Yeah, it's incredible to be able to do work
Kelly Sinclair:that is so aligned with a mission that matters to you as
Kelly Sinclair:an individual, right, and that you can see the potential for
Kelly Sinclair:the impact that that makes actually in the in the world
Kelly Sinclair:beyond you. I love, I love connecting with people who have
Kelly Sinclair:that sort of passion about whatever it is that they do
Kelly Sinclair:right? And bring that, to bring that into the light. And I feel
Kelly Sinclair:like I would love to hear your take first before we like narrow
Kelly Sinclair:the conversation too much into the AI, just in general, about
Kelly Sinclair:you know you were talking about like conversations that are
Kelly Sinclair:being had. It almost sounds like you you identified an invisible
Kelly Sinclair:gap right, a gap that is only known by one side of the
Kelly Sinclair:equation. And so what are some of the aspects for people who
Kelly Sinclair:are unaware, ignorant, or whatever word we're going to use
Kelly Sinclair:for that to bring awareness to it.
Annie Gichuru:Yeah, there's a lot of unawareness, because you
Annie Gichuru:don't know what you don't know. Helly and a lot of coaches,
Annie Gichuru:course creators, online business owners, who are providing a
Annie Gichuru:service potentially, are looking at things from one lens, the
Annie Gichuru:lens that they've always known, the lens that they've they've
Annie Gichuru:learned from, and often that is through a Western lens, that is
Annie Gichuru:through a white lens, and you don't know that, especially if
Annie Gichuru:you identify in that way. You just know what you know, and you
Annie Gichuru:don't know what you don't know. But it is when you begin to hear
Annie Gichuru:stories of people saying, well, I don't see myself represented
Annie Gichuru:when I look at this group program, when I want to perhaps
Annie Gichuru:be coached by this person, I want to take this course. I
Annie Gichuru:don't know how that will work out for me, because I don't know
Annie Gichuru:if I will feel seen, if I will seen, if I will feel or held in
Annie Gichuru:a certain way, if this person doesn't quite understand my
Annie Gichuru:background, some of the challenges, the setbacks that we
Annie Gichuru:experience as people of color, and so I'm not too sure if this
Annie Gichuru:space will be inclusive enough. I'm not too sure if this space
Annie Gichuru:will actually from even a safety perspective. I'm not too sure if
Annie Gichuru:I will feel safe enough to really show up as me. And the
Annie Gichuru:gap comes up where you know, potentially coaches, space
Annie Gichuru:holders are like I didn't know that. I All I know is that I'm a
Annie Gichuru:kind person. I am inclusive of people who come from all
Annie Gichuru:backgrounds. In fact, I have clients who are people of color.
Annie Gichuru:In fact, I potentially even have family members, or I'm even
Annie Gichuru:married to a person of color. But that doesn't really exempt
Annie Gichuru:you from having these gaps, or, you know, being able to hold
Annie Gichuru:space that allows somebody to feel a certain way, because I
Annie Gichuru:can tell you that as somebody who has been on the other side,
Annie Gichuru:as a client, somebody who has been a course taker, somebody
Annie Gichuru:who has been a coachee, I can tell when space has been held
Annie Gichuru:for me, or I have taken curriculum, you know, undergone
Annie Gichuru:through curriculum that feels inclusive, that it's not just
Annie Gichuru:one sided I can sense that, and there is a huge difference with
Annie Gichuru:how I then show up and what I take out from that experience,
Annie Gichuru:whereas if I come into, you know, a relationship or a
Annie Gichuru:container where that doesn't exist, there are already
Annie Gichuru:barriers immediately. For me and the host, the person who's doing
Annie Gichuru:all this may not even realize, and the people who are most at
Annie Gichuru:danger or harm are the ones who think, I'm good, I'm already
Annie Gichuru:inclusive, this is also good, but they're the ones who need to
Annie Gichuru:do this work even more, because they're the ones who believe in
Annie Gichuru:this work. It's not I've often had people say, oh, you know,
Annie Gichuru:Annie, you're doing great work. This work is, you know, for
Annie Gichuru:those who need to do this work, the people who are not
Annie Gichuru:inclusive, the people who are part of oppressive structures.
Annie Gichuru:But it'll take us a long time to get to those people. It's those
Annie Gichuru:who have already seen themselves as being inclusive. It's those
Annie Gichuru:who want to be inclusive, it's those who want to have equitable
Annie Gichuru:businesses that need to be leading the way, to be doing
Annie Gichuru:this work, regardless of whether they think they are or not, so
Annie Gichuru:that they can begin to help us pull those who are not into it.
Kelly Sinclair:Yes, so everything that you're saying
Kelly Sinclair:there is making me think there's a difference. And again, this
Kelly Sinclair:whole conversation will be incredibly nuanced, right? But
Kelly Sinclair:in when someone says, I'm good, they think that they're
Kelly Sinclair:inclusive, but perhaps what they just aren't as intentionally
Kelly Sinclair:uninclusive. So therefore you think kind of by the default of
Kelly Sinclair:the double negative, you're, you're, you know, holding the
Kelly Sinclair:space, whereas, I believe, from, you know, my own exploration of
Kelly Sinclair:this and conversations, it's more about intentional efforts,
Kelly Sinclair:intentional barriers being broken down, and setting
Kelly Sinclair:intention behind what you're putting out there. And if we can
Kelly Sinclair:even, like, speak to examples a little bit, because where does
Kelly Sinclair:this come across? It comes across a lot in communication,
Kelly Sinclair:right? And so that's really where it's going to tie in a
Kelly Sinclair:lot, as well into AI use, particularly for me, any anytime
Kelly Sinclair:I'm using AI is to help develop communication materials,
Kelly Sinclair:marketing, website, copy, emails, all of the things,
Kelly Sinclair:right? So the voice that's coming through, that's the
Kelly Sinclair:application of it. So I'm sort of saying, so, yeah, so where,
Kelly Sinclair:how can we then start embracing and being more intentional about
Kelly Sinclair:what we are, even how to evaluate what we're putting out
Kelly Sinclair:there to ensure that we move into more of a intentional
Kelly Sinclair:inclusion rather than unintentional exclusion.
Annie Gichuru:Yeah, great question. And just to take a
Annie Gichuru:step back, you know, a lot of people will view themselves,
Annie Gichuru:especially those who are values led business owners, they will
Annie Gichuru:view themselves as of course, I'm one of the good ones, Annie,
Annie Gichuru:because I am not a racist. I don't use racial slurs. I am as
Annie Gichuru:inclusive as I can be. I volunteer. I do all these things
Annie Gichuru:I am trying to do the right thing, I understand I have
Annie Gichuru:privilege. What privilege even and I understand the role that I
Annie Gichuru:need to play. So I think when people view it that way, that's
Annie Gichuru:the barrier, because they're seeing themselves in light of
Annie Gichuru:this is what the worst kind of scenario looks like. But the
Annie Gichuru:thing is, we are part of a system. You know, race itself is
Annie Gichuru:a, you know, is a social construct, and we are part of a
Annie Gichuru:system, and that is a system that different people benefit
Annie Gichuru:from. And a lot of times, when you're going through your
Annie Gichuru:everyday life, you do not realize how you're benefiting
Annie Gichuru:from this system and how it is having a potentially a negative
Annie Gichuru:impact on another group of people. And so when you go about
Annie Gichuru:life looking at it that way, and saying, I'm one of the good
Annie Gichuru:ones, one of the good ones, you in many ways, miss out on the
Annie Gichuru:ways in which you could be perhaps helping bring people
Annie Gichuru:along the journey. You're doing your bit because you feel like
Annie Gichuru:I'm already doing mine, or I'm not one of those people. And
Annie Gichuru:coming back to being intentional with inclusion, it begins with
Annie Gichuru:the work that we are doing personally. Because if I was to
Annie Gichuru:go ahead and engage with AI and I haven't done the work of
Annie Gichuru:keeping up and understanding the ways in which I can do better as
Annie Gichuru:a human first and foremost, before even being looking at
Annie Gichuru:myself as a business owner. If I'm not doing that internal
Annie Gichuru:work, then when I sit down and I'm getting all this brilliant
Annie Gichuru:assistance from Ai, I will not know when things are biased. I
Annie Gichuru:will not know when the information I am receiving is
Annie Gichuru:coming across in a way that might make my messaging be
Annie Gichuru:exclusive or, you know, exclude people. People that I didn't
Annie Gichuru:want to in the first place. So it requires a level of education
Annie Gichuru:and understanding from your perspective first and foremost,
Annie Gichuru:and then understanding that AI is not neutral. It is a tool
Annie Gichuru:that is there to help, but there are biases that are baked into
Annie Gichuru:it because it is gathering data, data that has been fed to it.
Annie Gichuru:There is also the algorithm that favors certain patterns. And
Annie Gichuru:then there is human bias as well that comes into play. Humans are
Annie Gichuru:feeding the information, and they're feeding it based on what
Annie Gichuru:they know or based on how they want it to behave. So the
Annie Gichuru:potential for it to do certain things in a biased way are very,
Annie Gichuru:very high. And sometimes, if you're not the group that is
Annie Gichuru:being targeted, often you will come in and you will see certain
Annie Gichuru:things and you'll be like, Oh, if we speak to gender, for
Annie Gichuru:example, you know, if you're being given examples by AI,
Annie Gichuru:like, Okay, give me, you know, CEOs, or how would I word this
Annie Gichuru:for people in leadership, and it's a very, you know, geared
Annie Gichuru:towards men, then you're like, hang on. Hang on, you know,
Annie Gichuru:let's take a step back. I'm this is the person I am, and this is
Annie Gichuru:who I'm speaking to. Could you make this a little bit more
Annie Gichuru:gender equitable? And then it'll go about say, Oh, I'm so sorry.
Annie Gichuru:Kelly, yeah, yeah. But you see, if you don't know that in the
Annie Gichuru:first place, you will not know and you kind of run with what
Annie Gichuru:you've been given, and it'll take you in a different
Annie Gichuru:direction.
Kelly Sinclair:What a great example, because in that case,
Kelly Sinclair:you can, I like to subscribe to a human first, AI adoption. So
Kelly Sinclair:to me, this means we have access to some amazing technology and
Kelly Sinclair:tools and potential, but we still, at the end of the day,
Kelly Sinclair:need to have a human lens through which we decide how
Kelly Sinclair:we're going to receive and what we're going to use this
Kelly Sinclair:information and the product of AI for. So that's really
Kelly Sinclair:important. And so that's one piece where you're saying that.
Kelly Sinclair:And so then that plays into the if you do not have the knowledge
Kelly Sinclair:yourself as a human from having done intentional work in these
Kelly Sinclair:areas, then how are you going to flag an issue like this? Right?
Kelly Sinclair:So it's really just pointing out that there's a gap that you may
Kelly Sinclair:not be be aware of, but I love the example of gender, where
Kelly Sinclair:it's quite easy to tell if something's very male focused or
Kelly Sinclair:female focused, right? But we know that, and then we can make
Kelly Sinclair:the tweak and adjust it. But we need to be able to start
Kelly Sinclair:bringing some skills and awareness into it for the
Kelly Sinclair:purpose of the of racial equity as well, absolutely.
Annie Gichuru:And here's the thing with the rise of AI, it is
Annie Gichuru:making people very take a step back, like, I don't need to do
Annie Gichuru:the work. You know, go ahead and produce this list for me, or do
Annie Gichuru:this and the other and yes, there is that ease in that
Annie Gichuru:there's a lot of things that they can do super quickly and
Annie Gichuru:produce those results for you. But the danger Kelly lies in the
Annie Gichuru:fact that when we get to accustomed to things just
Annie Gichuru:happening so quickly and not questioning or taking the time
Annie Gichuru:to continue to educate yourself, you will find you've gone in a
Annie Gichuru:whole different direction that you didn't intend to take so As
Annie Gichuru:much as we are embracing AI and it is supporting us, we also
Annie Gichuru:have to keep up with the education. We have to keep up
Annie Gichuru:with the ethical use of it, the integrity of it. We have to keep
Annie Gichuru:questioning and pushing back certain things, especially for
Annie Gichuru:us, who are space holders and we're working with humans. We're
Annie Gichuru:not in a space where we can just sit back and let it do
Annie Gichuru:everything we've got to question, and this is when we we
Annie Gichuru:have to really invest in learning and understanding this,
Annie Gichuru:this, this tools and these mechanisms and how they've been
Annie Gichuru:built, and are they good for my business? You know what? What is
Annie Gichuru:a better option, or what's out there that is really putting the
Annie Gichuru:human first, you know, getting better with understanding the
Annie Gichuru:tools and how they've been used and how we can use them better
Annie Gichuru:as well. Because how are we prompting them? What are we
Annie Gichuru:saying to them so that they can give us information that perhaps
Annie Gichuru:is more equitable? But it comes back to ethics at the end of the
Annie Gichuru:day, and I think the danger lies in when we get too relaxed, and
Annie Gichuru:even, for lack of a better word, lazy and we wanted to do all the
Annie Gichuru:work and we're not doing our due diligence on the other end,
Kelly Sinclair:Oh, absolutely, 100% agree with you. And I also
Kelly Sinclair:want to circle back to something else that you mentioned, because
Kelly Sinclair:some people might. Understand this as well. It's like, where,
Kelly Sinclair:where does AI come from? Where does AI get all of its insights?
Kelly Sinclair:Information, data, right, data that is programmed by humans.
Kelly Sinclair:And who are those humans that are programming what we are now
Kelly Sinclair:taking as truth? So absolutely needing to maintain a level of
Kelly Sinclair:skepticism for the purpose of, you know, interpreting and and
Kelly Sinclair:ensuring that you go through the effort like we're like, allow AI
Kelly Sinclair:to to help you take some steps, to move faster, to collect to
Kelly Sinclair:give you something to reflect on, but do not hand over all of
Kelly Sinclair:the control to this, because at the end of the day, your your
Kelly Sinclair:reputation is connected to what you put out there. And as a
Kelly Sinclair:business owner, this is so important. And as speaking as
Kelly Sinclair:somebody who is, you know, a brand strategist, it needs to be
Kelly Sinclair:in alignment, and it needs and if you say that your values are
Kelly Sinclair:to be inclusive. How do we check that? How do we ensure that that
Kelly Sinclair:actually is true when we are putting our communication
Kelly Sinclair:materials out there
Annie Gichuru:absolutely and the thing is, you've got to be
Annie Gichuru:doing the work. So the people who are perhaps, you know, a
Annie Gichuru:couple of steps forward are the ones who are doing the work. I'm
Annie Gichuru:still doing my inclusion work. I'm still learning, I'm still
Annie Gichuru:studying, I'm still being a student of this work. It is not
Annie Gichuru:enough for me to say I already know, or I am already good, or
Annie Gichuru:I'm already inclusive. No, it is continually doing the work. And
Annie Gichuru:how do you do the work engaging people who know more than you
Annie Gichuru:do, engaging people who come from backgrounds that are
Annie Gichuru:different from yourself, depending on what kind of
Annie Gichuru:inclusion you're after. You know, today we're looking at
Annie Gichuru:race. So am I reading books from people who don't look or sound
Annie Gichuru:like me? Am I listening to podcasts from people who might
Annie Gichuru:be sharing information I may not know that will allow me to look
Annie Gichuru:at things from a different lens, because lens I'm looking through
Annie Gichuru:is the lens I've been brought up with, the lens that has been
Annie Gichuru:accessible to me. What about the lens that has not been
Annie Gichuru:accessible to me? What about the lens that I don't yet know or
Annie Gichuru:haven't walked through that you know path? How can I learn? And
Annie Gichuru:when we hear those things, and we begin to hear them over and
Annie Gichuru:over, we begin to form belief systems, and our value systems
Annie Gichuru:are enhanced. And in so doing, when we do work with these AI
Annie Gichuru:tools, which are there to assist us, they're not there to take
Annie Gichuru:over, they're there to assist us, then we're able to look at
Annie Gichuru:things in a more critical way and go like, this makes sense?
Annie Gichuru:No, this doesn't make sense. I'm sure you've worked with an AI
Annie Gichuru:tool, and you go like, no, no, no, this is so frustrating. I'm
Annie Gichuru:telling you not to do this, but you keep doing it. It's because
Annie Gichuru:you have knowledge of what you want, but when you don't know,
Annie Gichuru:and you keep getting that information, you'll take that as
Annie Gichuru:gospel and you'll run with it. And chances are you're not, you
Annie Gichuru:will potentially harm your business, your branding, your
Annie Gichuru:reputation, which is so costly.
Kelly Sinclair:Oh, such a powerful acknowledgement there.
Kelly Sinclair:Yeah, thank you for that. I'd love to hear, just for the
Kelly Sinclair:people who, again, because we're talking at the super high level,
Kelly Sinclair:and I've got some like, triggers based on what you've said in
Kelly Sinclair:terms of, you know you need to have knowledge to reflect back
Kelly Sinclair:against what you're given from Ai, as far as an output. But
Kelly Sinclair:when you start having this conversation about AI bias, and
Kelly Sinclair:the reason, perhaps behind your development of the AI bias
Kelly Sinclair:guide, what were some examples? How did you notice this coming
Kelly Sinclair:up in your own use of AI? What was what was happening?
Annie Gichuru:You know, this started years and years ago, and
Annie Gichuru:I did not have an understanding of it. So, for example, many,
Annie Gichuru:many years ago, using digital phones, and you know, being able
Annie Gichuru:to put filters like, oh, you can enhance your face, or you can do
Annie Gichuru:this, or you can there was a time there was even this quirky
Annie Gichuru:things you could do. You could put, like, dog ears, and you
Annie Gichuru:could put fancy eyes and sunglasses and all that sort of
Annie Gichuru:thing.
Kelly Sinclair:And it was try and make zoom meetings fun. And
Kelly Sinclair:then,
Annie Gichuru:yeah, and so I remember trying some filters,
Annie Gichuru:and the filters would not recognize my face. It would come
Annie Gichuru:up with a big black circle, a big black circle, and I'm like,
Annie Gichuru:what's happening? And at that, because it was so many years
Annie Gichuru:ago, maybe 10 or even more years ago, I just go like, Hmm, that's
Annie Gichuru:strange, because I didn't know what I didn't know. Now fast
Annie Gichuru:forward, many, many years later, I understand that that was an
Annie Gichuru:issue to do with the algorithm. That it's not able to recognize
Annie Gichuru:my face because I'm a black woman, and how that filter has
Annie Gichuru:been programmed, has been programmed by a white person.
Annie Gichuru:And so it couldn't recognize my face, and so the whatever I
Annie Gichuru:wanted it to do, it couldn't do it. And so that is a bias that I
Annie Gichuru:came across, and in other ways, more recently, is having
Annie Gichuru:somebody inside of my group program, and we were using
Annie Gichuru:Facebook groups, and every time she would post, her posts would
Annie Gichuru:always get flagged as spam. Like, are you sure? Is this a
Annie Gichuru:member of I'm like, Yes, it is. And she had a lengthy name,
Annie Gichuru:Southeast Asian name. It wasn't your typical western names that
Annie Gichuru:are or Eurocentric sounding. And so it just continually kept
Annie Gichuru:getting flagged. And, you know, with time, obviously she she
Annie Gichuru:stopped engaging as much, and she was very appreciative of the
Annie Gichuru:fact that I had realized that and flagged it and said, Hey,
Annie Gichuru:this isn't spam. This is a real person. She's meant to be here.
Annie Gichuru:And so we encountered issues like that, and I couldn't get
Annie Gichuru:them resolved. And that's when we moved away from using
Annie Gichuru:Facebook groups to using a different container where you
Annie Gichuru:know such things wouldn't happen, and so if you're not
Annie Gichuru:aware of it, you may not think too much about it. But again,
Annie Gichuru:there is that bias when it comes to pronunciation of names, like,
Annie Gichuru:why is it flagging that particular name as an issue,
Annie Gichuru:even though the host is saying, accept this is somebody who's
Annie Gichuru:part of this group. What does that then do her experience was,
Annie Gichuru:you know, deeply impacted, and I could absolutely sympathize with
Annie Gichuru:somebody who has experienced these things in different ways.
Annie Gichuru:And so those are the biases that exist. And if you're not aware
Annie Gichuru:of them, you may not have language, or you will not even
Annie Gichuru:know it is happening. And that is why educating yourself and
Annie Gichuru:knowing and you're going, this is what happened to me, or this
Annie Gichuru:is what's happening, or I need to be on the lookout if somebody
Annie Gichuru:says this or experiences this, I am beginning to make myself
Annie Gichuru:aware and educated, and so I'm a little bit ahead of the curve.
Kelly Sinclair:Those are some very hurtful experiences. That's
Kelly Sinclair:yeah, wow. Do you have any advice as far as a first step
Kelly Sinclair:for sort of auditing your own systems when people are thinking
Kelly Sinclair:about how to better integrate these concepts into AI use. I
Kelly Sinclair:feel like, you know what AI does is it, where's the lens you give
Kelly Sinclair:it, right? I've been doing a lot of work lately in helping to
Kelly Sinclair:develop your brand so that you can have a brand calibration
Kelly Sinclair:tool, which helps it to then sound more like you as an
Kelly Sinclair:individual. So we go through all these steps. We pull that all
Kelly Sinclair:together, extract it, put it into essentially one core
Kelly Sinclair:document that becomes that helps that now I'm not just writing an
Kelly Sinclair:email. I'm writing an email to the people who I said are my
Kelly Sinclair:audience from my voice with my messaging, so it's closer to my
Kelly Sinclair:output, right? So I'm curious if there's is a potential to add
Kelly Sinclair:another layer, another lens, to it like that.
Annie Gichuru:Yeah, there is. And this is where human
Annie Gichuru:connection is so, so important. Kelly, as much as we're relying
Annie Gichuru:on AI tools to make things easier for us and to support us
Annie Gichuru:in our businesses, this is where human connection is really,
Annie Gichuru:really important. And you know, having the ability to do that
Annie Gichuru:audit with another human, you know, working with inclusion
Annie Gichuru:consultants and things like that is very, very helpful. I'll give
Annie Gichuru:you an example. For example, a movie that was done. I can't
Annie Gichuru:remember what it was called, but I believe it won an Oscar. I
Annie Gichuru:think it was best actress or something, but it received a lot
Annie Gichuru:of criticism afterwards, when they said, Oh, you know, the
Annie Gichuru:person who even played this role is doesn't come from that
Annie Gichuru:background. They're not authentic to that ethnicity. And
Annie Gichuru:I feel like we would have been better represented, or perhaps
Annie Gichuru:how they identified was not in the real representation of, you
Annie Gichuru:know, that particular group of people. And so this is where.
Annie Gichuru:And I think the director and the team felt like, Yeah, we should
Annie Gichuru:have done a little bit more work to include people who do come
Annie Gichuru:from this background, who do identify in this way, so that as
Annie Gichuru:we're creating this movie, as we're telling this story, we're
Annie Gichuru:really telling it in an authentic way. We're telling it
Annie Gichuru:as real and as genuine as. We can. We're not just making up
Annie Gichuru:stories as we go along. And this is where, if you're running your
Annie Gichuru:business and you're trying to check, is this true, is this
Annie Gichuru:authentic? You know, having those checks and not relying on
Annie Gichuru:AI 100% and going like, who can I get to come in and have a look
Annie Gichuru:at my work and audit this for inclusion. And the more you do
Annie Gichuru:it, the better you get at it, and you're able to pick up on
Annie Gichuru:these things, and you're able to prompt it in a certain way. But
Annie Gichuru:we're still we have such a long, long way to go there, but it's
Annie Gichuru:just training ourselves to think, Okay, before I put this
Annie Gichuru:material out there, who do I know who can support me in this
Annie Gichuru:way to come in and just have a quick sweep and a quick look at
Annie Gichuru:what I've put out there. Is it inclusive enough? And this is
Annie Gichuru:some of the things that I do with clients, even when it comes
Annie Gichuru:to program names, like, how have you named that program? Is it
Annie Gichuru:culturally appropriating? You know, people who come from a
Annie Gichuru:certain culture, the ways in which you're using certain
Annie Gichuru:sentences, does it make certain people from a particular
Annie Gichuru:background feel excluded? Is the language culturally sensitive or
Annie Gichuru:it is not? And I'm not saying we're doing this to get it 100%
Annie Gichuru:right, but we're doing the due diligence of reducing the harm,
Annie Gichuru:because sometimes we can't be 100% harm free, but we're doing
Annie Gichuru:everything we can to reduce that. The same thing with
Annie Gichuru:safety. We cannot claim that our space is 100% safe, but what can
Annie Gichuru:we do, even just with our homes, with our kids? What can we do to
Annie Gichuru:make the environment safer? That's the key thing. What can
Annie Gichuru:we do to make it safer? What can we do to reduce the harm? And I
Annie Gichuru:think this is when we get people like that to support us in our
Annie Gichuru:business, then we're walking towards having equitable and
Annie Gichuru:more inclusive businesses. We're being deep and intentional about
Annie Gichuru:it. We're not guessing our way around.
Kelly Sinclair:Oh, I think that's so beautiful, because a
Kelly Sinclair:lot of people feel this pressure and this, well, a desire to do
Kelly Sinclair:better, but like a nervousness around getting it wrong. But the
Kelly Sinclair:way that you just describe that is very much about the small
Kelly Sinclair:steps, the efforts, the movement, the moving towards and
Kelly Sinclair:like, you know, every conversation, every pause to
Kelly Sinclair:reflect and consider, all of these are steps moving in the
Kelly Sinclair:right direction. So that felt very validating, for lack of a
Kelly Sinclair:better word for me, even you know, because it's even it's
Kelly Sinclair:challenging to have this conversation right without like,
Kelly Sinclair:I'm trying to be sensitive as well. I want, I know, I wanted
Kelly Sinclair:to have you on this podcast to say, you know, you bring such an
Kelly Sinclair:important perspective, I want to shine your voice to as many
Kelly Sinclair:people as I can. And I've recruited an audience, and so I
Kelly Sinclair:would love to introduce you there. You know, these are the
Kelly Sinclair:steps that I can take right now. And thank you so much for this
Kelly Sinclair:conversation. And is there anything else that you want to
Kelly Sinclair:add here before we kind of close up?
Annie Gichuru:I think as space holders, it is our duty. It is
Annie Gichuru:upon us to create spaces that people come in and they truly
Annie Gichuru:feel seen, they truly feel held, and we actually make that
Annie Gichuru:difference that we want to make. You know, we have the skill, we
Annie Gichuru:have the talent that's been placed in us, but we also need
Annie Gichuru:to do the work of ensuring What am I doing to make sure that I
Annie Gichuru:am educated, I am informed. Things are not taking me by
Annie Gichuru:surprise, and one of the things I'm going to challenge your
Annie Gichuru:listeners Kelly is have a look around your contacts. Have a
Annie Gichuru:look at your social media feed. Who are the people you interact
Annie Gichuru:with? Who are the people that you are engaging with their
Annie Gichuru:posts, or who are the people engaging with your posts? If
Annie Gichuru:these are people who predominantly look and sound
Annie Gichuru:like you, there's already a question there to ask, why is
Annie Gichuru:this the case, and what can I do to have people from different
Annie Gichuru:backgrounds that I am interacting with? Because it's
Annie Gichuru:only when you do that that you're able to see the gaps. So
Annie Gichuru:do that as a little bit of homework when you're scrolling
Annie Gichuru:and see who am I engaging with and who are the people who are
Annie Gichuru:engaging with me? And if you don't have that diverse
Annie Gichuru:representation, chances are there are things that you don't
Annie Gichuru:know, there are gaps that exist, that you cannot see, and it's
Annie Gichuru:time to probably begin to look at things and engaging with
Annie Gichuru:people from different backgrounds.
Kelly Sinclair:Oh, that's such an excellent and. Tangible
Kelly Sinclair:challenge, and also I feel like my own, like personal commitment
Kelly Sinclair:and takeaway. I was thinking, you know, the answer to the
Kelly Sinclair:question is, why is that? It's because it's comfortable to stay
Kelly Sinclair:with what we know and who we you know, hear from, and even when
Kelly Sinclair:you speak to you know, one of the what I'm hearing you say, So
Kelly Sinclair:correct me? If I'm not reflecting this properly, one of
Kelly Sinclair:the steps is, is the ability to take on some perspective that's
Kelly Sinclair:not yours, right? And this is a challenging thing to do as a
Kelly Sinclair:human in general, because we all are just like this is what I
Kelly Sinclair:think this, you know? And that doesn't mean that we're
Kelly Sinclair:projecting our beliefs on other people. We just sit in our own
Kelly Sinclair:perspective and we look through those glasses. Putting on
Kelly Sinclair:somebody else's glasses is something that you have to try
Kelly Sinclair:and do intentionally. So I'm even thinking, you know, I
Kelly Sinclair:recently got back into reading just for fun, and it would be a
Kelly Sinclair:good idea to just find an author of color to just come and get
Kelly Sinclair:into a book, right? It doesn't have to be on the topic of
Kelly Sinclair:racial equity or anything, but just that a step into hearing
Kelly Sinclair:perspective and feeling that a little bit more, right?
Annie Gichuru:I love that so much. It doesn't always have to
Annie Gichuru:be that you're reading about racism, that you're reading
Annie Gichuru:about this atrocities that are happening. Yes, they're all
Annie Gichuru:around us, but you could find a fiction book in the genre that
Annie Gichuru:you absolutely love, but it's been written by somebody else.
Annie Gichuru:It's the language that they use, it's the description, and it
Annie Gichuru:takes you to a different world. It's like what JK Rowling did
Annie Gichuru:with, you know, her books. She managed to take people into a
Annie Gichuru:completely different world that they had never been in, and they
Annie Gichuru:got engrossed, and they started looking at things so
Annie Gichuru:differently. And so that is what we do. When we look at things
Annie Gichuru:from a different perspective, we are beginning to open our eyes
Annie Gichuru:to things that we didn't expect or know, and it makes us better
Annie Gichuru:humans. At the end of the day, it will make you a better space
Annie Gichuru:holder. It will make you a better business. It will just
Annie Gichuru:make you that human who people gravitate towards because
Annie Gichuru:there's something about you that they're not getting from
Annie Gichuru:somebody who's just looking through that one lens,
Kelly Sinclair:yes, and into kind of, like, end that too.
Kelly Sinclair:It's not a checkbox, right? Like, I love that. You say
Kelly Sinclair:there's a feeling, it's a nuance. There's no, like, you
Kelly Sinclair:know, there's no super tangible tips that we're giving you
Kelly Sinclair:today. Like, step one, do this. Check it off, then you're good.
Kelly Sinclair:No, that's not how it's going to be. It's thank you for being
Kelly Sinclair:part of this conversation, listening to this, continuing to
Kelly Sinclair:engage with Annie and others who are speaking into this very
Kelly Sinclair:important topic, and finding ways to bring more of this into
Kelly Sinclair:your own life so that you can be like you said, a better human
Kelly Sinclair:and I feel like thank you so much for this conversation,
Kelly Sinclair:because that is because that is the impact that we were able to
Kelly Sinclair:have today to help people become better humans.
Annie Gichuru:That's so beautiful. Thank you, Kelly for
Annie Gichuru:having me. This has been so special. Thank you so much.
Kelly Sinclair:And Annie has a AI bias Guide, which is
Kelly Sinclair:available in the ease and alignment with AI bundle, and
Kelly Sinclair:the link is in the show notes, and also all of the links to
Kelly Sinclair:check out your podcast, Annie, and find you on your website and
Kelly Sinclair:your program, and anything else that you want to say as a last
Kelly Sinclair:word before we go,
Annie Gichuru:I think I have said everything. But just to
Annie Gichuru:close off, you know you are here. You were created on
Annie Gichuru:purpose for a purpose. Never forget that. Keep showing up,
Annie Gichuru:keep doing your best, and you will reap the benefits of that.