The *Real* Secret to Getting Through the Tough Times in Your Business

For me, I just realized, like, where do I need to tighten things up? Like, where do I need to really step up as the CEO? And so it actually led to me creating a community of my own, of me creating leads of my own, and really marketing to those people and showing up in a different way.

This is the entrepreneur school podcast where we believe you can run a thriving business and still make your family a priority. This show is all about supporting you, the emerging or early stage Entrepreneur on your journey from solopreneur to CEO while wearing all of the other hats in your life. My name is Kelly Sinclair, and I'm a brand and marketing strategist who started a business with two kids under three. I'm a corporate PR girl turned entrepreneur after I learned the hard way that life is too short to waste doing things that burn you out on this show, you'll hear inspiring stories from other business owners on their journey and learn strategies to help you grow a profitable business while making it all fit into the life that you want. Welcome to entrepreneur School. Welcome to another amazing guest episode of entrepreneur school today, I'm chatting with Michelle vroom. She is a business coach who specializes in helping women become sought out and sign consistent clients. She has nearly 20 years of experience in marketing, and she is a mom of three boys, and her mission is to put every woman in control of making money so they can become the provider for their families. I know you're going to love this conversation, because it is sort of that, quote, unpopular opinion, where we chat about, like, the real deal behind the scenes in business, how you go through different phases and how to deal with some of the more challenging times that we face on a regular basis. This is not just about, you know, the first time something goes wrong. It's about acknowledging that at every phase and at every level there's a new level of challenges, and how do we get through those things, and how do we really accept that they are going to happen, so that we can stay committed to the goal. So I hope you love this conversation and make sure to connect in with Michelle as well. She also has a podcast called market like a boss, and you will find the link to that in the show notes. Hello, welcome back to entrepreneur school. I'm here with a wonderful guest today, Michelle vroom. She is a business coach, and we are going to talk about whatever we are going to talk about, because before we got on the recording, we were chatting about how we've both been in business for several years now, and how that changes, maybe the way that you look at things in this online space, in the coaching space, and so there are phases, there are cycles, and that's where we're Going to start, really. So Michelle, thank you for being here today.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited for this conversation.

Yes, amazing. I wanna, like, dive right into the hard stuff first, because we see this kind of shiny happy like, let's just talk about all of the money that we're making, and all the clients that we have, and all of the good things that are happening on social media, and we're calling BS on Matt a little bit. Actually, I call it a lot of it, a lot of it, because we go through hard times, right? There are things that happen to us that we cannot control, that can send us down a spiral, and we have to find ways to recover and iterate and pivot. And so let's talk about your story of challenge, and you're a mom of three, and you're a business owner, and if that's not challenging enough,

right? What is?

Yeah, exactly. So. So I know that you have a story about your own client pipeline and how things have shifted for you, so why don't we start there?

Yeah, absolutely. So I've been in business for eight and a half years. I'm a mom of three boys, and I don't know that it's I feel like the boys, like the three boys, adds another layer here of just absolute energy and sometimes chaos. But I've always been running a business with a child at home. So I started my business when my oldest son was six months old. So it's like, I've never known kind of a life outside of that. So I've always had to be very kind of scrappy and, like, figure things out and figure out how to make this work without, you know, full time childcare and just all of that. You know, juggling all of that is very challenging to begin with for me. You know, I come from a marketing background, right? So I've, you know, done marketing prior to starting my own business for agencies. I've done marketing for, you know, corporate like health insurance company. I worked for a global health insurance company for a couple of years. I've done. In marketing for nonprofits. So it's like, I come from a marketing background, and while that's an awesome thing for my clients, it's not always easy for me to apply that to my business. And I just want to say that right out of the gate, because the first initial like, really big challenge I faced in my business came about a year into business, and you would think that I would have been able to figure this out and anticipate this, but looking at your business is totally different. No matter. I work with mostly, most of my clients are marketers themselves. Either have a marketing background or they do marketing for their clients, or coach their clients through marketing strategy, you know, etc. And it's like, okay, it's so easy for me to look at somebody else's business, but not my own, through the same lens, and I think that's been challenging too, you know, a year into business, I lost three clients in one day. And at the time I was doing done for you work. So actually started as, you know, a social media manager. I would write, like, website copy, like I did any and all marketing things, because I didn't really have a clear, you know, picture of what I wanted to do. I just knew what I could do. And so I wasn't even into coaching. I moved into coaching, kind of after this, this whole thing happened, but I was doing, done for you work, right? So I was working with clients, kind of on retainers. And in one day, I lost three of my clients, which at the time was most of my client base. And they were fairly big clients, and I think it broke down to two of them were existing, like retainer clients who just didn't have cash flow anymore, like it wasn't anything that I did. I think that actually would have been easier, like to be able to talk through if they were unhappy or something was going on. These were just Fluke situations. And then the other was a client who had committed. We hadn't, like officially gotten started yet, but they had committed to working with me. Boom, like we backed out. So, you know, I'm literally sitting there. Not only that, I was eight months pregnant with my second child, so I was two months out from giving birth, right? And who's gonna, like, how come I gonna go out and get another retainer client, even if I had the leads, which I didn't, and I'm a marketer, and I didn't have leads to go back to, I didn't have an audience to go back to. I didn't have, you know, potential clients in the pipeline, even if I had though, like I was about to have a chat, like it that the timing couldn't have been worse. And I remember sitting on my couch, and I'm sure, like, pregnancy hormones played a role in this, but I remember sitting there being like, I should just quit. I could quit right now, right? Like, this is really hard. I could quit. What led to me not quitting, obviously, is that I knew that I would always wonder, what if, and I wasn't okay with that, and so I kind of picked myself up, like by my bootstraps, and I started just networking in other Facebook groups, right? Like, I had already kind of been doing a little bit of that, but I just sort of amped that up. I was like, okay, what can I do? But I can sit here and think about all the things that I can't do, and this is such a good lesson for business, I think. But what can I do? And so I decided that I was just going to network and just see what opportunities arose. Well, in a Facebook group, I connected with somebody who needed help marketing an event that she was running and she needed someone to come on board for two months. It was like the perfect time frame right before I gave birth. That one right? That one relationship actually turned into a two year ongoing client relationship that was very fruitful for my business. Had I been like, oh, it's only two months. Oh, it's a small amount of money, like, whatever. But I was like, No, I'm gonna take any opportunity that comes my way. And so I share that because I think that we all go through times, and I have many, many more times even more after reaching six figures, people think, once you make a certain amount of money, everything's going to be great. It's not. There's so much I can say about that. But this was like my first real hardship in business, and to decide, you know, I had to decide to recommit. I think we decide to recommit to our business in so many different phases. What also led, or what also came out of that situation was me realizing I never want to be in this situation again where a client is a renew, or I lose a client and I don't have any other leads like that is ridiculous. I don't want to be in that situation because I'm all about helping women be in control of signing clients. I'm all about helping women provide for their families, whatever that looks like. How can you do that if you don't have, you know, protection against those things that happen. Because, to your point, Kelly, like people would love to paint this picture of, you know, clients are always happy. They always stay with you forever. Everything's great. No, there are people who will ask for refunds. There are people who will back out. There are people who will ghost you. Like, these things happen to me. They don't happen, you know, often because I have, like, good boundaries in place, and good relationships with my clients. I know who I'm marketing to, but it still happens. And so for me, I just realized, like, where do I need to tighten things up? Like, where do I need to really step up as the CEO? And so it actually led to me creating a community of my own, of me creating leads of my own, and really marketing to those people and showing up in a different way. And what's interesting is, I think it was probably about a year later, like the following year, or it might have been two years later, two years after that incident happened, that first thing, I had a client back out after our first 30 days of working together, builders, thought the very next day, 24 hours. Later. I mean, what a what a difference right between that first, what was different? It's because I had a community. It's because I've been actively marketing, like, I know all these things, but it's so easy to not do them for yourself.

Yeah, and I love this whole like story, unpack a little bit more the phases of it to like, come in and just relate go hard. First of all, to all of you. I love that you underscored that your expertise applied to yourself does not always work the same as when you're applying your expertise to other people. And I think that is actually something that we need to remember when things don't work out, it doesn't mean that you suck at what you do. It just means that you don't have clients right now, right? Yeah, it doesn't, doesn't devalue you in any way, like and and, like you said, the experience of having that loss, I had something very similar happened to me a couple of years ago as well, because I was working with some nonprofits and they just ran out of money. And like, I knew would happen sometime. I didn't know, you know, I know I was gonna get five years or two years or whatever out of it. Yeah, it was eventually going to happen that they wouldn't have budget. And they the budget for two of my clients ended at the exact same time. But then I was like, Cool. And part of it too is like looking at your business model. So I hear you saying that as well, and going that you were doing, like, done for you service, which is the way a lot of us start out, where, like, we have this skill set. Let's use it for other people and do the stuff and eventually evolve that into, like, teaching other people how to do it and doing that, like, bringing that coaching and that kind of stuff into it. So I think there's an interesting if you want to, like, unpack any of that a little bit more too, about, like, how you touched on your, your actual business model, and then looking at your business model and going, well, we need, we need a consistent stream of leads to come into this.

Yeah, you know, I think that was the start that situation. Was the start of me, of me realizing that later on, that that year, once I had, you know, had my second child, and I was literally juggling my oldest two are 18 or 19 months apart, so, like, very close in age. So I'm juggling, you know, a newborn and a toddler. I was under charging for my done for you services, which I think is a common theme for a lot of women and coaches too, but I was under charging. So I had clients, but I had, like so many that I had to serve, and I was, you know, exhausted, and not at all near, you know, the eight to 10k months that I wanted to be making. And so I remember just almost like having a little bit of, like, a mini breakdown later that year. And that's when I, you know, invested in my first coach. That's when I really started realizing, you know what, I think there's something here. At the time, I was thinking more consulting versus coaching. I don't even know that I was like calling it coaching, but, you know, I think there's something here where there's this whole market of women who, you know, I really love the idea of kind of coming alongside of them as their as their partner, and that opened up the doors to One to One coaching. And then I naturally hit, you know, the same roadblock that a lot of my clients hit, where now you're really in demand with your one to one coaching, and you're like, Okay, I don't want to limit myself in terms of my capacity. I can't take on more clients. I want to make more money, you know, like, I have clients who are at 100k and they're like, Well, I want to grow to 250 k3, 100k and I don't love the idea of not being able to do that, because I don't have more capacity to take on one to one clients. And so then, like, group program really became a bigger part of of my journey, and actually is what kind of sort of catapulted me toward the multiple six figure mark. And so all of that, though, like happened in a phased approach, because I would butt up against a new challenge. It's like, people are constantly waiting, I think, to arrive at a place in business where there aren't new challenges. And it's like, oh, we think that, you know, the more clients, the more money. Like, that's going to do it for us, but you're always going to hit new challenges. I hit new challenges now as a result of having scaled my business, which is great, it's made me a lot of money, but I didn't necessarily like the way that I was scaling it. And so I'm actually in a pruning season of my business, you know, and I just think that that needs to be talked about more. I mean, for me as a coach, I really bring that kind of perspective to my clients, especially my clients who are at six figures because I'm more money, more problems. Like, there's more responsibility, right? Like, I've had the team, I've had, you know, hundreds of clients working, you know, in a group program, like, I've done the scaling at all costs, so to speak. And even though you might be doing really well on paper in your business, like, how's your emotional health? How's your mental health? Like, all of that is stuff that I just don't hear a lot of people talking about. But I've, you know, experienced some of those things recently in my business, as well as I've as I've leveled up and grown really quickly.

Yeah, I'm so glad that you're bringing that up, because it's true. It feels like, you know, such a great accomplishment. And it is when you get to that next level, and then you like, get the next level problems right that come with that. And I think especially when you get to a point. Point where you realize you have to hire the pressure of paying other people and ensuring that you have the cash flow to do that can be so stressful, debilitating, even at some points, and then it can, like, send you in the other direction, right? Like I've done that, I've gone I've had a team, and now I'm back to solopreneur, essentially,

so expenses can get wild. That's something else a lot of people don't talk about. I'm very open about, like, the money that I make. I shared with my audience earlier this year my five year income report from, like, the last five years, and like, what I've learned, and I feel like that transparency has led to, like, some of the conversations that were happening, that that we're having, but what people also don't talk about it, I'll probably unpack at some point. I'm, you know, once I've kind of fully processed it. Like, expenses can get crazy. Like you can be making really good money, but then this whole, like, notion of scaling, yes, we need to scale. But there's a lot of people out there who don't really tell you, you know what happens when you scale, or what happens when you scale too quickly, or you over hire, or you're like, the expenses really don't make sense. Like, yes, there's investing, and I'm always going to stretch myself when it comes to investing. Like, that's just who I am. I believe in that. But there's also, like, stretching yourself too much to the point where it's really, you know, not doing your business. It's doing your business a disservice. And I think that there are coaches who should be consulting their clients on that, and aren't, you know, and that's something that I will always bring to the table with my clients, now that I've experienced some of that in terms of just like, like, there are people, yes, making a lot of money, but like, their expenses are out of control or insane, you know. And it's like, what are we doing? Is that? What is that? What you want? Is that what you want? What's the vision for your business? And that vision is allowed to change. You know, I was saying to you before we started this interview that my youngest child, my my my baby, my pandemic baby. He is now in his second year of preschool, and he's full time five days a week. Last year he was two days a week. So, like, I've always had a kid at home, and now I'm like, oh my goodness, things are opening up. And before, you know, I wasn't able to take on a lot of one to one clients, there was a period of my business where I really had to go more all in on group. And now I'm finding on my heart, like, I really want to serve some more one to one clients. Like, I just signed a client at the beginning of this month who's at 100k she wants to grow, you know, she wants to double her revenue or more, but she's maxed out. She's at capacity. She wants to add on a group offer to her business and figure out how to do that. I have another client who's growing and scaling her group program because she's met like, I love serving that level of person, and I haven't been able to before, and so now it's like, never say never like, I'm gonna take on some more one to one clients, right? And I just feel like you're also allowed to shift your vision as you change. I mean, I'm going through a new phase of being a mom and a parent, and it's weird. Sometimes it's exciting, but it's weird, and my business has kind of always had to, like, adjust, if that makes sense.

Oh, I think that's so good. And such a great like, permission for people to to think about that too. Because when I work in, like, the branding space too, that's really where it all comes from. It's like, where do you want to go? What's your big vision for this? And and, yeah, it does change. Because when I first started my business, I was like, Well, I just want to be able to cover my childcare, because I know that I don't want to not work, but I also know that I need to not lose money by working. Yeah, so that was, like my baseline vision at the beginning, which then after a few years, evolved to this whole, like growing a team and like thinking way bigger about it. And then I scaled back that vision again, and I think that the piece around here is the allowing yourself to do that with whatever is right, because you can't predict your own future and how you're going to feel when you go through the different phases of your life, especially in parenting, like how you now have more time, and you might want to do something different with that, or maybe somebody whose Kids are going to school full time for the first time is like, I cannot wait to take every Friday off for myself and just only, like, do personal things and go to the spa more, or work out more, or whatever it is. It doesn't all have to be centered around your business all the time, because this whole podcast is about blending business and life together and really demonstrating how that looks different for every single person, and it's absolutely okay for you to choose what that is for you, and really like, lean into it. So power to you, and thank you for that.

Yeah, it's a conversation we are not having enough of. You know, I have some clients who are maxed out with done for you services. And they're like, I don't want to grow an agency. I don't want to hire a team. What? What are my options? There's always options. But if we're not clear, or if we're following somebody else's definition of scaling right, or if we get like, caught up in like, scale at all costs, get to seven figures, Do this, do that, but then we don't like the way we're doing it. It's like. I know I'm gonna grow a seven figure business. Like, that's the when, not an if. But do I like how I'm doing it right? Like, I love, you know, deeper relationships with my clients. I love, you know, I have a couple clients right now who I've been working with for three, four, sometimes longer, you know, years. And it's like, I love that. I love being able to go deep, especially with the one to one clients. And so that's just the way I operate. Like I don't know that I'm the person who wants to scale with a $97 offer and people that she never talks to. So I think there are trade offs. Yes, I think that we have to have the right expectations that match the direction we're moving in. But you are allowed to change your mind. You are allowed to make a different decision, you know, once you get to a certain point, and it can be really hard to do that when you're making good money in your business, because you're afraid that, if you, like, make a different decision, it's going to disrupt the flow, or you're going to go backwards, or you're not going to, you know, be able to take care of your responsibilities. Like, I think we're so afraid to, like, let go of something, even if it's no longer serving us in the next phase, that it's like we're afraid to put it down. You know what I mean, because we're so afraid we're gonna break our business. But what I've learned is you really can't break your business at a certain level. Do you know what I mean? Like at the beginning, maybe. But I would say break is kind of a weird way to say it, like you might, you know, make things, but when you get to a certain point in your business and you're, you know, make it like it's hard to break it. It really is hard. Businesses are way more resilient than I think we give them credit for. And I think we're more resilient than we give ourselves credit for.

Yeah, and you mentioned earlier about being in like, what you were calling a pruning phase. And I love that, because such a good visual, too, on how you you actually need to prune your garden, in your trees and everything for them to come back with more flowers and with, you know, to be more full and look better in the next year. And all of this stuff takes time. So what is that looking like for you right now?

Well, I haven't like publicly announced this, though my current clients know it, but I'm happy to share it here, because I think it's relevant to the conversation. I just announced my one of my bigger group programs that I've been running for five years. I just announced that we're closing in at the end of November, so 90 days from now, I still have another group program that I'm going all in on, and I'm taking on more one to one clients. And that was a really hard decision. You know, hundreds of people that I've served in there. The reason why I made that decision is because I know where I'm at right now in this stage of business, in life, I want to take on more one to one clients. I want to go all in on on the one group program that I have, instead of trying to manage two different ones. And it just doesn't I'm not able to bring my best, right? If I stretch myself so thin and so pruning does I think mean simplifying things so that you can then maybe add on other things that make more sense. Like, I have a lot of ideas, I just haven't been able to execute on them, because I've been trying to manage and juggle all of these different things. And so I just made the decision, like, I think it's time to close this program to kind of, you know, it's been amazing. It's led to so much in my business. You know, me closing it is not anything to do with like, oh, it's not working or whatever. It's actually harder decision to make when it is working, but, you know, long term, that's just not fitting the vision of what you want. And so I had to make that announcement to my clients this week. And I mean, they're all amazing, like they understand there's disappointment, but that was a big thing that I've like. It's been in the back of my mind, like I wonder where this fits in the long term vision. I didn't do anything or make any moves for a while, until I felt certain. And I also wanted to, you know, know how I was going to handle it with my clients, and make sure that they still feel seen and taken care of. But that's really hard to have to do that, you know. But if I don't, what is the alternative? It's burning myself out, you know? I mean, you see these business owners, these these seven figure, eight figure business owners burning themselves out and then closing down their entire business, I'd rather prune and be able to build some things that make more sense in the long term than, like, get to a point where I'm so I've reached such a level of burnout that actually have to shut everything down.

Yeah, I love that you keep referencing that your litmus test for all your decision making is like, how do I want to operate, how do I want to show up, and how can I just be happy with the way that I'm doing it? And I think that is so empowering, because a lot of the time we can get so easily influenced by the content that we're consuming on whatever podcasts or whatever programs that we're paying for, or whatever social media that we're seeing, that it's like, this is the way. There is this. These are the steps. This is the how we want, because people want to sell, you know, their methods and their, you know, ways to the success. And so we start to also believe that there actually is just maybe a handful of ways, and we just need to subscribe to one and then go for it, versus being able to check in with ourselves and actually notice this is what I want to do. This is how I want to show up. This is the way I want to serve this is the way I want to engage with people and like, basically, screw what everyone is saying.

Can I Okay, ooh. Can I go even? Like, do. Proper on this because I have in the pruning season. Not only does that mean pruning offers, it also means pruning the voices that are speaking into my business. I let go of some voices that have been speaking into my business for a very long time. And I didn't do it because the relationship turned sour, or anything like that. I did it because I realized that without realizing it, subconsciously, I was taking advice, you know, specifically from my coach, from other people in the business, and I wasn't what I wanted, right? And I wasn't trusting my voice. And it's so funny for me to say that, because as a coach, as a marketer like I am so cognizant of checking in with my clients and making sure that like what we're doing is what they want. But I didn't do that, or I stopped doing that at one point in my relationship, even with my with one of my coaches who I had worked with for for long term. And you know, I think that there was a realization there that, you know, I just wasn't trusting myself. I was listening more to to her guidance, which wasn't bad or wrong. It just at some point along the way, I think I changed my mind about how I wanted to scale, and I don't know that she was as tapped into that either. So like, I think it was probably me not speaking up as much, not being as open and honest about that, because maybe I was afraid to, like, let her down, which, again, it sounds so silly to say this because I know better, right? I know better. I know you know, when I'm coaching my clients like the importance of helping them trust themselves more. I'm not the coach that you hire who you have to be dependent on. I think there are some coaches who you know are doing that, and I don't subscribe to that, but I allowed that to happen because I was so afraid of losing it all. Do you know what I mean? Like, I have had really big years in my business. I have made over 300k in my business. You know, in a single year, I've made over a million dollars in the last, you know, three, four years. And I don't say I don't throw around those numbers to brag. I say it because that's the level of that I had reached. And it was scary to think about, oh my gosh, if I trust myself, or if I do something different. What if I lose it all? And I do think that as a coach on the other side, we need to be cognizant of that with our clients. So for me now, when I work with my clients, especially clients who are at higher levels making quite a bit of money, it is not my agenda, like whatever we were working toward, if it shifts, or if I start to notice which I think, I think it's me noticing it first. I don't even think we realize it in ourselves. I think I was showing up to coaching calls with my coach, like, there was a lot of mental drama in my head, and I couldn't figure out why, like, I'm pretty good with my mindset, and in the sense that I have, like, a regular practice where I'm, you know, always making sure that, like, I'm tapping into what's going on or why I'm feeling a certain way. But I was struggling more than than I think I realized. I couldn't figure out why. And now, as a coach, understanding what I went through, I'm like, ooh, if I catch that my clients are acting off or something, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, right away be like, Hey, what's going on? Because it's hard to get you to a place like out of out of the checking the boxes. It's like, okay, no, I'm moving forward the strategy, but it's like, Wait, let's stop for a minute and check in. And that can be a really uncomfortable conversation, but I think it's so necessary. So I just have a different it's not that I wasn't doing that before as a coach, but I think, like, I have an even bigger perspective around that now that I'm excited to bring to my clients, because they're going to benefit from all of that.

Well. And I think this has been the theme of this entire conversation is that wherever you're at it's really about leaning in and trusting yourself to do what you feel is right, to allow your vision to shift, to be able to check in with that regularly, to give you the guidance that you need. And it's always so interesting to me how I end up having podcast interviews or networking calls with like exactly the right person who's having the conversation that's going on in my head right now too, yeah, because, like you said, there's there's a fear, and there's also that when you get into like action, right, you're now doing instead of thinking. And sometimes that's important, because if we just overthink, we're never going to get anything done. But we do need to make space for that and be able to hear the voice that's coming up in our own minds that's saying, you know, whether something should get thrown out or changed or pruned or go eat on it more, or any of these things. So this has been so great. I do want to circle back just to the the very first thing that we were talking about with respect to your awareness at the beginning, about the need to have, like, consistent leads, and the solution, essentially, for the problem that you discovered early on in your business, where you lost clients in a single day and you had, like, limited time before you were able to you're having a baby, and then you're then you have to, like, build a business again, and, oh my gosh, that must have been so stressful first of all. But just like, come back to the the awareness of the the leads and sort of how you're addressing that now, yeah,

yeah, and I wanted to just bring that up for the reminder of the need to create some system for yourself where you are constantly, you know, serving somewhere in order to attract new clients. Because sometimes in the service businesses, we can just get overloaded with, oh, well, I don't need to do marketing right now, because I have clients, and then all of a sudden, all the contracts end or something, oh yeah, in the same day. And you're like, Oh crap, I forgot about that, or I didn't have time, or whatever. So it's about prioritizing it.

That is really sneaky, too, by the way, because it's not like you notice it right away. It's like, it's like turning the tap down, the water is still coming out. It's just not coming out as quickly, right? Like, I think that's a great analogy for you know, you get serving a bunch of clients, and you start to put your marketing on the back burner, or it's just because less time and energy is devoted to it, you won't notice it right away, and that's why it's so sneaky. When will you notice it? You'll notice it 90 days out. So, you know, potentially six months out, like, I've gone through this cycle with many clients where they're like, don't have the leads I thought I should have, and I'm like, Well, what were you doing the last 90 days serving my clients? Science, I got too wrapped up and didn't and we don't notice it right away, and that's why I think it sneaks up on you.

Yep, yep. I think, I think we could just put a period at the end of that. Yes, yeah, absolutely. Oh my gosh, Michelle, thank you so much for this conversation. I'd love for you to share where everyone can connect with you. They can come join your Facebook group, they can listen to your podcast. Yes,

The market like a boss. Facebook group, absolutely. That's where I talk about, you know, creating demand for your offers. And then what do you do when you have demand? How do you grow beyond that? So that's those are the conversations that we're having, and we're continuing to have more of them. And then my podcast, it's called like a boss right now, but I'm going back to its original name soon market like a boss. So you can just search for that. I talk about similar things on the podcast. It's all around helping you really step into the role of the provider in business and life. And that's going to look different at different levels, as we've kind of talked about here today. And so whatever level you're at, like, I want to help you truly provide you know, through your business. So I would love to connect in either one of those places.

Amazing and all the links will be below in the show notes so that you can stay in touch with Michelle. Thank you for your time today.

Thank you so much.

All right, everyone. We'll see you next time you did it.

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