Create marketing that looks good, feels good and makes sales with Hayley Rissler

I tried selling something multiple times. But I always just felt like everything that I touched would not sell. Like even though I love marketing now I hated. For the longest time, I felt so uncomfortable selling. And I think that's something that resonates with a lot of people. It just feel uncomfortable putting themselves out there asking for money, all of those good things that are actually you know, the core of your business and why we're in business just to make money. So I, you know, really had to work on those selling skills for myself. And that's something that I really found valuable with the story brand framework, because when you're using story based marketing, it doesn't feel nearly as pushy because the whole premise of it is that you're connecting with your customer first. And like making those connections getting on the same page, really kind of diving into the customers problem and the you know, success that they really want to see, and then positioning your product as the solution to that problem.

This is the Entrepreneur School Podcast where we believe you can run a thriving business and still make your family a priority. This show is all about supporting you the emerging or early stage Entrepreneur on your journey from solopreneur to CEO while wearing all of the other hats in your life. My name is Kelly Sinclair and I'm a brand and marketing strategist who started a business with two kids under 3am, a corporate PR girl turned entrepreneur after I learned the hard way that life is too short to waste doing things that burn you out. On this show. You'll hear inspiring stories from other business owners on their journey, and learn strategies to help you grow a profitable business while making it all fit into the life that you want. Welcome to Entrepreneur School.

Hey, hey, Hayley, welcome to Entrepreneur School.

Yay. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

I love having guest interviews on the show, especially when we're talking about one motherhood and running a business because you have three very young children. Yes. Yeah. Like transitioning into school and stuff right now. It's crazy. Yes,

Yeah, it's, um, it's been it's been something it's been good. My oldest is very outgoing. So he's been thriving in kindergarten. But, you know, then I also have two younger and daycare. So it's been kind of chaotic in the mornings. Like, now people are going to different places, like different schools. So figuring all that out has been, you know, it's been it's been a lot. But now we're a couple months today going in, we are getting the routines under our belts. And I think I think we're settling in. But you know, we're also getting into sixth season, so anything's possible at this point.

Oh, man, there's so much just like, what's gonna happen tomorrow, and then you make a plan, and then something just goes totally second?

Oh, I know. It's like, every plan I make has to have a caveat or a plan B, because I'm like, I don't know who's gonna get sick when and like, you know, you went to a movie this weekend, and my husband was sick. So I was like, Okay, well, you're staying home. And, but but it was fun. I feel like my kids are starting to get a little bit older. I mean, older, they're almost six, three and seven months. So very young. But like, we can go out and do some more fun things now, like I took my two oldest to a movie, and it was like, it was so great to be able to do something that was also relaxing for me. Because, you know, I find a lot of motherhood, very exhausting, but I love going and seeing a movie. But with young kids, it's just not really something that we get to do very much. So being able to do something like that with them. And something that I really enjoy as well. It was just it was it was a really great time. So I'm excited to kind of come into this space of motherhood here and there a little bit.

Yeah, it is a game changer when they start like becoming more independent and stuff, but you just shift into different levels of like, Mom, Sherpa, Agnes? Yes. Oh, my God is I live at our community rec center literally have to go there four days a week for gymnastics or hockey practice at this point. It's like, okay, this isn't my life.

Yeah, yeah. And start like doing some things on their own while you just like get a moment to yourself. It's like, ah, like, okay, I can breathe. Now in my seven month old, he is just the happiest little guy which is great. I've haven't historically had super happy babies. But he is very happy. He's so easy to take around everywhere. I have like fall asleep wherever. So he's like, that stereotypical third child just go with the flow, which has been really really like wonderful addition to our family. I just love him so much. He's like, just the the best baby so that's been that's been wonderful.

Oh, that's so good. I honestly can't imagine how Running a business and like, you're like, you're into your second business kind of getting it off the ground with such a young baby. So tell us a little bit about, like what you do and how this is like unfolding for you?

the certification.

That's awesome. Okay, let's go back and unpack this for a second, you launch methi. So you had like, you're like, I'm gonna do this. And you're I love the phrase, and my brain went offline. So waited, like, listen to what you need, right? In the time in this union that you were in at that point. And then you were like, Okay, so, you know, tell me like, like, take me back. Because it's been a minute since I launched a business. And he's like, when you're thinking about starting, what are all the things and especially if you are already deep in the online space, there's so much influence out there around like what you quote should do in order to launch. So tell me like what's going on in your mind as you're thinking about how, what how I'm supposed to and what I'm supposed to do here?

Yeah. So I have, I'm kind of like a serial entrepreneur, if you will, like, I will get a really fun business idea. And then just like, come up with all the branding for it, and then like, kill it. Oh, I end up wanting to do it. So like, I have almost launched a sticker shop, a caramel apple business, like a bunch of really random things. But mostly, I just love creating the marketing and branding for businesses. And then the rest. I'm kind of like mitt, but I knew that this one is one that I was going to have to see through. So to start, I knew that I needed to get everything like legal squared away. So my first step was filing for an LLC for it. So I needed to first come up with the name of my business and the name of my LLC. That is what took me the longest because I'm terrible when it comes to naming things. So I spent that was like my whole pregnancy was just trying to come up with a name for my business. So I settled on copy, click studio, which I love, I'm so happy with the name that I chose. So I had to file for an LLC, once I got that I had to get an EIN number so that I could you know, do taxes and stuff through it. And then I needed to find an accountant. So those were kind of all the foundations for the business, as well as creating a website and then very much prioritize putting an email list together because I knew that was going to be where where my business like existed. So I had to do those were very high on my list as well as what was it Oh, getting like a billing software set up so that I could get my people like have a contract signed have them pay all in one cohesive, easy steps. So and then Instagram because I like hanging out on Instagram the most I wanted that to be where I focus my social presence, because I enjoy hanging out there and I'm already there a lot. So yeah, those were like those were really the foundations of

I might want to say you didn't do like a big super splashy today, you're just like, hey, I'm here. And then you started like having one on one conversations with people.

Yeah, absolutely. So tell us a bit about what you do at copy click studio as far as like turning marketing messaging into something that people resonate with, because this is a really like challenging skill for a lot of people. They're just like, I just don't know what to say I don't know how to talk about what I do. I don't know how to do it in a way that actually connects makes people want to buy from me.

Right? And then it's different applications like social media versus email, like, how do you use this, it kind of becomes your guide. Right?

Exactly, yeah. So it's like a marketing playbook that we put together. And I create like a one page script that has all of these pieces of the marketing framework in it, and then they can see like, okay, it's really great, because then I like, then you can take that script and say, Okay, I want to write a social media post about the problem that my customers facing, okay, I want to write a social media post or write an email about the, like, success that they're going to see or the aspirational identity that they're gonna feel. So, you know, I love it, because it's like this whole guide for you to use in all different parts of your marketing, and also a bunch of ideas for parts of your marketing messaging that you can talk about in all of your, you know, marketing materials about your product and your brand.

Yeah, so definitely like a, an important piece of that is having a really solid awareness of your ideal client and who they are, where they are, what they're experiencing. And this is something I find people really struggle with, especially when they're like newer into business, and you haven't like worked with too many people yet. And you're having a hard time like, narrowing down what the niche is. So what advice do you have around that, especially for people who are maybe just getting started?

Yes. Oh, my gosh, that's a great question. Well,

I know sorry, to interrupt your your flow there. Just delay caveat like, so don't stop listening, if you aren't just getting started. But sometimes you launch new things as you're growing. So you have a new product, a new service that still requires going through this process again?

Yes, yes, for sure. So I like to think of customers as being on a spectrum. So there are customers that are very ready to buy your product. And there's customers that are several steps behind them that aren't quite ready to buy your product, but they might be ready in three months, six months a year, etc. So in your marketing material, you at least what I believe is it's it's easiest and most helpful to talk to those people who are ready to buy your product or maybe at that like 70 to 100% ready to buy your product, they might just need a little bit more convincing. But when you're using messaging that talks to those people that are very ready to buy your product, you're still including those people that are several steps behind them because they know that that's where they're going to want to get to eventually anyway as well if that makes sense. So they're going to be like they're gonna get there eventually. And they can see like, oh yeah, I do see that. I'm I'm going to need this eventually, maybe I don't need it quite yet. But I want to bookmark this for later because that's what I'm going to need when I'm ready. And then they're going to want to stay in your space. So I find with that mentality, it really helps keep, keep your marketing messaging focused, while also feeling comfortable, that you're still speaking to those people that are a few steps behind.

That is a really interesting perspective, instead of thinking that you have to actually like, because a lot of people teach the, like, customer journey framework going from unaware to most a winner, basically. And that you have to like have things that address people at all the places and I'm literally going through an exercise right now trying to figure out what what are they really scared him way back here? And then how do I like take them along with me. And you're saying you kind of don't have to because they, as long as you know, their aspirations, and they know their aspirations. And you can say, this is how we get those aspirations to, like come true, then they're going to connect the rest of the dots pretty much themselves.

Yes, absolutely. And it really helps like, it helps you focus in as a as an entrepreneur as well, because you don't feel like you have to talk to so many people, you're really just talking to that core, you know, that buyer who's like right about there. And like you mentioned, all of those people have the same endpoint that they want to go to that like same aspirational identity, they're all having the same problem, they might just be feeling that problem on different levels. You know, like some, like, when it comes to visibility, some people might be in those beginning stages. And they know, they're going to need to focus on visibility in the next three, three to six months. But that's not a core focus quite yet. Like me, when I was just launching my business, like, I know that I need to focus on visibility at some point, but like, I still have to get my LLC created, I need to get my software set up and like all of that stuff, you know, but I'll get there eventually. So it really helps everybody, you know, feel like resonate with what you're talking about?

Yeah, yeah, that feels a little, like less pressure, too. As for you, if you're if you're like narrowing the scope, domain specific because we know that the more specific you can be with your copy with your messaging, the more it's going to connect with people.

Yes, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So once I kind of figured that out, it really helps my clients as well, because like you said, it takes less pressure off. And you know, you're really focusing on the end end result in the end result that you're going to provide them versus focusing so much on, like, all of these different pain points, you know, with story brand we teach, and what I work on with my clients is focusing on one cohesive problem solution, instead of throwing so many problems and so many solutions at your customer. Because, you know, as CEO of storebrand, Donald Miller says, If you confuse you lose, so if you're putting too much out there and your marketing material, you're going to lose your customers. So really, for sales pages, emails, like any piece of marketing collateral that I'm working on, I try and keep it as streamlined and focused as possible without branching off on like, so you're feeling this, like, let's talk about that. And now I know that you're also feeling this, let's talk about that. And then there's this other thing that you've probably experienced, and like, that really stinks. And so you know, it's just like, it becomes so chaotic. And when people think that their marketing material is feeling really chaotic, and all over the place, it's because it isn't They're probably talking about too many things at once. So, yeah, it's, it's hard, because you know, so many entrepreneurs are passionate about so many things. And you're like any course program, whatever probably does help with a lot of different pain points. But if you throw all those pain points at your customer, they're gonna get really overwhelmed and not be as likely to convert. So keeping it streamlined I've seen over and over again, keeping it streamlined and keeping it focused really helps your customers pay attention and actually listen and want to buy what you have to sell them.

So it's kind of like shining all the lights on one main pain and solution to just like really get them to understand that this is what I need. And then that whole concept of like the sell them what they want, give them what they need, all of the rest can come in, in the delivery of whatever you're actually offering.

Absolutely, yeah. And that's where it comes to, again, where you're talking about the like customer spectrum earlier, focusing on that one aspirational identity, like this is the core thing that you want. And this is like the biggest desire that you have, let's focus on getting you there, all the other pieces are gonna fall into place, you know, and that's kind of where your framework comes in. Like, here's the steps that you need to see and part of the story brand framework is having a three step plan to help them see success. So I'm talking about about what that, you know, easy to follow plan is because when someone has a problem, they just want like an easy. Give me a plan, Help me Help me understand what I need to do. And it's like, step one, you join my course step two, I mean, it would be not exactly this, but like stepping on the course step to implement the strategies. Step three, become the aspirational identity that we're talking about. And you want to you want to become and so they're like, oh, that's what I have to do. Okay, like, I want to buy this course. And,

Okay, can you workshop this with me for the sake of having an example? Because I think that a lot of the time, we and myself included, so I'm going to give you my own like clients aspirational identity, I think it's sometimes very broad. Right? Yeah, we're an entrepreneur, their aspirational identity to like, get clients and run a successful business. Well, how do you what do you go from there? How do you narrow that down, get more specific, or do you need to?

Well, you can so what so I would then ask you, why do they want to get more client? I mean, they want a successful business. But if we can, if I can ask you why, like, what's, what's another reasoning? Why behind that?

Well, for the flexibility and freedom that comes with being an entrepreneur, especially when you're a parent, intimate, because you occupy axis that for

Yes, for sure. So to piggyback off of that, one question I really like asking is when your customer is laying in bed at night, and they can't sleep, what is like, what are they thinking about? Like, what is keeping them up at night in relation to getting clients and running a successful business?

In relation to that? Well, I feel like it's like, it's the outcome. It's the money like I need to make money, or my business or my family.

Yeah. So thinking through that, then. So like, Are you thinking of this in terms of like, narrowing down your core messaging?

I feel like it's so vanilla to be like, you want to grow a business? This is the way to grow a business. Like, obviously, there's a million ways it could be like, well, you need to get better at marketing messaging, you need better copy, you need to have a website, you need visibility, you need, like, you need a financial plan, like it could be any number of things.

So what would you say it is then about your program that differentiates it from from other programs? Or like, what's the core thing that you teach in your program that helps them see success?

The skill set to put themselves out there get visible become more competent and clear.

Okay, so then with that, like, the problem there then might be Would you say it's like, maybe in their confidence or something like that?

Yeah. Yeah, like, because even as you were saying earlier, right. When we start a business, we're like, oh, we just we don't really know how to put ourselves out there. We feel nervous about like, being too salesy. It's uncomfortable to ask people to give us money for things. Mm hmm.

So what I would do with that, then is to add, like some spice to your marketing and not feel so like vanilla, and all of that, I like thinking of a specific moment that your customer is experiencing. So like, if they are lacking the confidence and putting themselves out there saying something like, do your palms feel sweaty when you think of, like pitching yourself to to your like, dream collaboration or something like that? Or like, Oh, yes. So with story brand, this is the idea of opening a story loop. So when we hear the start of a story, we feel like we need to finish it. So what's the story that you can tell that resonates with them that they have experienced or can see themselves experiencing that your course helps them helps them overcome? So I would start the story with something very visual, something that they can resonate with. So yeah, like, do your palms feel sweaty? Do you like all of those things that you would think about in lacking confidence when it comes to comes to collaborating? And that's something that's going to hook their attention, so I'm narrowing it down. More. So you said the aspirational identity can be very broad. They want to get clients and run a successful business so that they can have flexibility and freedom. So I when I work with clients, in that like half day strategy session, we spend a long time really nit like, drilling down deep into what the core problem is. Because yeah, everybody wants to be successful. Everybody wants to get clients but like, what's keeping them up at night? What does your customer deserve? So Oh, you said they need to, they need to make money. But like in terms even like beyond that, like they need their name to get out there, they need like the assets to deliver to like, you know, a probably a media package or something like that. They probably like what are they feeling, or they're probably feeling overwhelmed by all of this nervous about putting, like, maybe being putting themselves out there and getting rejected I'm sure fear of rejection is a huge thing that like your your students would experience. So then once we can, like, get all of those, and really drill down, like deeper and deeper than that makes your marketing messaging feel a lot more pointed to like so that we can like talk about the success.

I see that because you could then be you're more like exposing a deeper cause of a problem that they may not be aware of. And when you point that out, they're like, oh, that

Yeah. Yep, yep. And we need I need that now. Yes, yes. And then, you know, I'm like, what they call an impasse. So I'm very much like, feel other people's feelings. So I'm like, let's feel all of the things and let's talk about whatever your students are feeling. And then put all of that in your marketing material. Because, you know, when, when you can say, Hey, I know what it's like to feel scared to pitch or whatever it is. They're like, Oh, my gosh, she gets me. Oh, yeah, guys here, and it said, that whole like,

So you gone up the courage to take yourself to the networking event. And now you have to go find a seat, and who are you going to talk to you? And what are you even going to say? When somebody asks you what you do?

Like that is like I as like, outgoing. As I seem networking events are the bane of my existence. Like I like hands shaking, like sitting in the car, wondering if I shouldn't even go in or not.

Right, right. You're like, what? How late is too late to be casually late.

Right? Yes. And then I walk in, and I'm like, sweating. And I'm like, Can people see that? I'm sweating? And like I What's my name and the bar and? Right, exactly, yeah, that's. So you probably need your course over here.

Got everybody. This is coming on my sales page. Dude. That was super helpful. I think for anybody to ask, like, all those questions that you were just asking me, those are the questions that people need to be able to answer. Or they're to be able to unlock their own marketing messaging and get more clear about their ideal clients experience, because we have to put everything into that perspective. Yes, I think that is the main shift that I feel like we take away from this conversation is instead of, hey, I can do this, that I could do that. And it's going to help you. It's like, Would you like this? This is what you're experiencing? Like, in you, as a result of just even saying that to them? They become they feel that seen? Heard? Understood?

Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah. When you can connect with your customer on that level, versus just putting information out at them. Like, hey, like, you need clients. It's like, Yeah, I do need clients, but like, everybody's saying that I need clients. But when you can really like talk about an experience that they've had, that's when they're gonna start listening. So you know, when putting that into practice, that is, you know, looking at the headlines on your sales page, are those headlines really grabbing their attention with those feelings out there feeling with the experiencing, the experiences that they've had on your social media, leading with those things that are going to help them connect to you as a person and not just a deliverable that you are putting out there?

We're her Oh, yeah, this is so good. Okay, Haley, is there any like final words of advice, so we didn't get to that you want to make sure that people hear before we sign out?

I think, when in doubt, keep your marketing concise. I think at the end of the day, people, all of us entrepreneurs tend to ramble. I mean, you started your business for reason. You're so passionate about the thing that it is that you want to share. But you know, putting your passion out there can feel like a fire hose to your customer sometimes. So when in doubt, dial it back. Like keep it simple, keep it streamlined, use lots of like whitespace and all good stuff to try and not biros, your customer with marketing material. So you know, keep it short. Keep it I feel like that should be like a sign off. Keep it short. Keep it snappy.

No, I'm writing down this is the quote that goes.

But keep it clear and concise instead of you know too flowery or too worrying about being too catchy. I am rarely, like really catchy and marketing. I'm very clear and concise because people have an easier time understanding that versus trying to figure out what you are getting across by being catchy. So when in doubt, keep it clear and concise. And, you know, try not to be too flowery, because that's actually going to lose people.

Totally. So good. Okay, amazing. Please let us know where we can find you. And I believe that you have a lovely gift that we'll put in the show notes links as well.

Yes. So I love to hang out on Instagram. I am at copyclick.co. So please come find me send me a message. And then yes, I also have a wonderful download five marketing mistakes that might be ruining your sales. So you can grab that at copyclick.co/podcasts and grab it from their free download and then I send an email every Tuesday with great marketing tips that you can implement right away. So yes, come hang out with me. I'm nice and I have fun.

Thank you so much for being here, Hayley.

Yeah, thank you, Kelly.

You did it. You just listen to another episode of the Entrepreneur School Podcast. It's like you just went to business school while you folded your laundry, prep dinner, or picked up your kids at school. Thank you so much for being here. I want to personally celebrate your commitment to growing your business. You can imagine I'm throwing confetti for you right now. If you enjoyed today's episode, please leave us a review. Make sure you're subscribed and let us know you're listening by screenshotting this episode, and tagging us on Instagram, head to entrepreneurschool.ca for tons of tools and resources to help you grow your business while keeping your family a priority. You can subscribe to our email list and join our community. And until next time, go out there and do the thing.